Mixing for DJs is very different from mixing a live band for PA.
DJs cannot set the channel fader to the exact appropriate level for every song; it’s not feasible in their busy workflow. So, DJs often mostly slide the fader of the next song to the maximum position because there is not much time to properly pre-listen hear and adjust the track slider to, for example, -3 dB.
So yes, like you said, “the channel faders are there for fast movements”… “to the max”, I would add.
This is very different from the workflow of mixing a live band in a PA situation. I think everyone understands that.
So live DJs have to rely heavily on good auto-gain and a properly working gain knob system with good fine adjustment capabilities to quickly adapt when needed.
Apart from the “sudden drops problem” that I mentioned earlier. In my opinion, these ‘fine adjustments’ for gain also don’t work as intuitively and smoothly on DJay (in combination with the Reloop 8). (The db changes are too rough / too much.)
So again I think it would work much better when auto-gain on Djay should leave the visible gain knob alone and had the auto-gain in a kind of separate layer. This is how Traktor has designed it already many year ago and this always has been working fine for me. (So please check that out).
And if the LUFS gain/loudness measurement that @heysoundude mentioned is really good, it would be worthwhile for the dev team to examine and test it, in my opinion. Thanks for mentioning it, @heysoundude!
Thanks, @Slak_Jaw, for diving into this important core issue.
To answer these questions:
Yes, I think it should leave the visible gain knob alone. Alternatively, it could have a separate ‘view’ on the knob for showing the auto-gain level, similar to the Traktor solution, where normal gain and auto-gain have different views, but are layered on top of each other.
It’s not always about different songs being louder or softer. Sometimes it also has to do with different pressings, recordings, or masterings. Even the same song can have different loudness levels when it comes from different collection CDs. (Not even talking about compression here).
I think that if the gain knobs were less sensitive and the auto-gain was no longer visible within the gain knob, my problem would already be significantly reduced. Additionally, if the auto-gain/loudness calculation method could be improved (using LUFS, for instance), it would become one of the better solutions in the market.
This brings me to a new question, @Slak_Jaw: I believe that music files like MP3 or M4A do already contain metadata as well including default gain levels provided by the tools or sources from which they originate (like Apple Music or Beatport).
My question: why does software like DJay calculate the base gain level themselves again ?
What needs bearing in mind is that auto gain simply sets the peaks to a certain level. It doesn’t alter the dynamic range of the track, so the issue with playing a modern track alongside an old track will remain.
Having to pre listen and check levels for every song beforehand - yes, that’s precisely what DJs have done for many decades, and it’s perfectly doable. DJ equipment has gain knobs for that exact purpose.
“Live DJs have to rely heavily on good autogain”? IMO that’s not the case.
To my knowledge there’s not a single piece of DJ hardware on the market currently that has auto gain. Anyone DJing with standalone equipment will not (cannot) be using auto gain. It’s a software option, and it’s a convenience, not a necessity.
If you find manually adjusting levels too much hard work, then use of a compressor as suggested is the way to go.
Having two separate gain layers doesn’t make sense to me. I am thinking what if I have a track that is really quiet (Shout from the Animal House soundtrack comes to mind) and I push the gain knob to 3 o’clock position. Then I load the next track and it is also quiet. If now 3 o’clock is the new zero point. Now I can’t turn the new track up anymore, but if 0 is always at 12 o’clock, then I still can turn up or down a track. I think the “pickup” method is best. If auto gain doesn’t meet my expectation for the track, I move the knob until it reaches the take over point, and make my manual adjustment, it only takes a fraction of a second. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
If Algoriddim were to implement the requested change. I ask that it be an option that can be turned off in settings for us who are used to and prefer the current workflow.
Thanks for this. I have now enabled the ‘Pickup’ option in the 4 decks and will try it as a workaround. However, please note that my original wish and suggestion remain unchanged.
I see auto-gain as a kind of “first correction method” for the recording level of the file. Some files are normalized to 0 dB, others to -4 dB, etc. These need to be played equally in the first place.
This first correction should work independently from the gain knob (on the controller as well as the visible gain in the software), so that there is zero confusion and the gain knob can be used for additional corrections, such as for soft parts or transitions from highly compressed music styles (EDM, Dance) to more dynamic styles (Pop, Disco).
And yes, I know that auto-gain isn’t available in hardware-only players, but since we have the possibility in the software, why not use it to our advantage, right?
Autogain does not work like it does in Serato DJ for me as well. Any small adjustment leads to a volume change.
In DJay, when i move the hardware trim knob its actually moving the trim on screen, unlike serato when I move the hardware trim knob the gain knob on screen does not move yet I get the control I need.
When autogain is enabled, when one moves the trim knob on the hardware, what i expect is to have an adjustment from the current point, not a dip or jump in volume.
Great idea, put in a fast paced open format quick mixing situation, this is not an ideal solution. I dont want to be fumbling and squinting at the screen to figure what direction i need to move the trim knob before it kicks in.
The Deno devices have this soft takeover stuff on the pitch faders as well, but at least there is an LED Arrow that tells you what direction to move the pitch for it regain control of the pitch adjustment
No need to re-invent the wheel, the Serato method works fine.
Autogain enabled…yes
Load a track
Needs slightly more or less volume, use the gain knob.
In its current iteration the djay implementation of autogain is going to throw a lot of serato dinosaurs like myself off.
it would be nice if it can be added as an extra option.
First of all I think the gain knob is on the software-side is too little and not very clearly designed to (you can do so much with color and little thick marks), but besides that I think you have a good point saying:
Great idea, put in a fast paced open format quick mixing situation, this is not an ideal solution. I dont want to be fumbling and squinting at the screen to figure what direction i need to move the trim knob before it kicks in.
I feel the same about this.
And good to know that Serato implemented also something similar to Traktor concerning (Auto)Gain. They are proven and solid methods.
In conclusion: Auto-gain needs te be separate from the normal gain knob
I use autogain and manual together without issues with an encoder in relative mode, mapped to deck[x]/gain. For new tracks it uses the auto setting and if I don’t touch the gain, it stays that way. I also use the ‘save and restore manually set gain values’, hence if I touch the gain control, this overrides the autogain permanently. No steps or hick-ups at all. If you lack controller resources to map it, I use a shift on the volume controller.
Maybe there is a problem with the pick-up setting if you use absolute analogue controllers? But anyway, this is suboptimal to begin with, especially in the more stressful situations.
Btw., maybe autogain is a bit misleading term. It does not dynamically adjust during playback, it is a static gain that is calculated once during analysis of a track, if you change it manually nothing gets broken, just a new static gain is set.
Btw2., what happens with serato if you disconnect the controller, change the controller knob and re-connect? I think you would either get a jump upon reconnecting because it takes over the new value abruptly as new initialisation, or you get the jump later. In the first case you probably do not notice the jump and new setting, which is as bad as anything esle.
Hmm, yes, maybe a bit simplistic example. But how I see it, the fundamental problem is the absolute controllers, in my relative setup I don’t have any problems, and believe me, I’m pedantic with these things.
Maybe serato has a clever workaround to treat a analogue pot as relative, but at the end it is a workaround.
Why do the conservative controller manufacturers use absolute analogue pots for everything?
In Serato its like two different gains on the channel
Pre gain / manual gain / autogain
Post gain
Pre gain is not mapped to the trim knob of controllers by default ie turning the trim knob on any Serato controller/mixer does not affect the software GUI trim knob.
The post gain does not have any GUI elements in Serato. It is accessible to users only by hardware trim and feedback is by channel VU meters in the hardware.
Hi !
This topic has already caused some discussion. Which I think is a sign that it is also relevant to others. (And I don’t think that is very strange because it is the music that is ultimately what it is all about and if we do not hear well or at a constant volume, it detracts from the experience, the mix and performance.)
In any case, I have now turned on the “Pick-Up mode” so that adjustments in the Gain are no longer suddenly very abrupt. The disadvantage is that you first have to find the current point and that is quite difficult because the gain knob in the software is kept quite small and is not visually clearly designed (compare with the Traktor knob in the video).
@Brainbox: thanks for your last addition to the discussion and I do think that relative buttons might also be part of the solution, but unfortunately you can’t change what manufacturers are doing.
@Mufasa: thanks for explaining how Serato works. It uses somewhat the same principle as Traktor, I think, where the auto-gain is separated from the manual gain.
To make this clear to everyone, I have recorded this video that makes this (IMO) smart solution clear.
When you have questions please ask.
